Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Chroma Charge podcast.
I trust you, you've eaten well, made some new friends, I hope.
Are we ready to go again?
Yeah. Did you have fun this morning?
Good, good. There was gold. Really, really loved that last session. So we're very grateful to Tim.
We thought what we'd do now is do a little panel and ask both Joel and Tim some questions, and then we'll see. We'll maybe fish a few out from some of you. Okay? So if you've got some questions, have a little think about it and we'll see where we go now.
So why don't you welcome Tim and Joel.
Take a seat.
So I'm going to start asking a few questions because I want to make sure we ask the right questions.
Okay.
And I guess, guys, I'd just like to really just kick off asking you, how do you prepare for worship? And this isn't a trick question. If it's a can of Coke, that's perfectly okay.
But what do you do to. You touched on this a little bit this morning, Tim. Get yourself in a place to lead people into the place of worship.
So dumb.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Me first.
I. I don't know if this answers your question. I.
I have always seen. I mean, I lead worship a lot here, so. As in, it's going on a lot of the time, and sometimes I have lots of time before and other times I don't. So I've kind of always been of the principle that I spend time with the Lord every day, and that is my time with God, and I'm. I'm prioritizing him every day. So then no matter whether I'm leading worship or not, I'm spending time with him, if that makes sense for me, then. Then what tends to be important for me because I'm prioritizing spending time with Him. I'm reading my Bible, I'm praying, I go on walks and every night.
So because I'm doing all of that, then for me, it becomes a little bit more simple if I'm honest. Like, I.
I need.
I prioritize all the practicals so that when I lead worship, I'm only focused on Jesus and not on all the practicals, if that makes sense. So I want to make sure the equipment's right when we sound check. I'm like the most.
You know, Paul will tell you I'm give. I'm so on it about my mix because I want everything to be right, not because, well, maybe I am difficult, but more because then my head can totally switch off and I'm totally focused on the Lord.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: So.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: So actually a lot of my preparation is can I get everything sorted so that I'm prepared to solely focus on God. So, you know, changing strings, backup guitars, have I slept properly? Have I like, eaten all those things? Sounds really stupid, but like, I split it into that so that then when I get on stage and I worship, I'm solely focused on worshiping God.
[00:03:16] Speaker C: Yes, very good.
Similar thing that sort of. You're drawing from the. Well of that relationship with God throughout the week and every day. But I think the thing that helped me is to be asking questions. So I remember back in the day, soul survivor Mike Pilavarci, who's really invested in myself and Matt and a few others, he would always be asking us, what do you think God's doing?
And so that, to me is the question I'm always asking myself. So as I'm driving into church, getting ready to lead worship God, is there anything you're wanting to do? Is there a song you're wanting us to lead, or is just there a sense? And then when I'm leading worship, I'm asking God, what are you doing? Which is why I think it's really important. I know we've different sort of ways of setting up for worship. I've seen more of late where people maybe are turned in.
And for me, I guess my challenge or thing I find I'm not so sure on is because actually the reason I want to look out people is not so that they can see me. It's so that I can see what the Spirit is doing amongst them. And I think the danger of trying, like, I've got to have this revelation of the Spirit that I then deliver to everyone rather than actually God's going to be moving in the people. And so I'm asking as I'm leading God, what are you doing? Is there anything you suddenly. Are you resting on a particular moment in the song or are we needing to create space and shift from the set? All of these things. So that's really. I think my preparation is always asking that question, God, what are you doing?
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Just.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Just picking up on that. So you're, you're.
It sounds like you're worshipping in a sense, with your eyes open. You're looking at what's. What's going on, and you touched on it a little bit. What.
What would be the sign that the Lord is moving or that he's steering you?
How would you know that?
[00:05:16] Speaker C: It's a great question, I think.
I mean, it's something of A call or a gift where you have that sensitivity to spirit. Now I realize that I think I've been wired with sensitivity now for years. I found that difficult because I've thought around leadership. You've got to be, like, strong. But actually, I've realized that's my gift, that I have a sensitivity to the spirit and to people.
And so I think there's something that I feel which is hard to maybe totally give the rationale of how, why, but I do.
I've learned over the years, I guess, to trust those instincts by seeing. Okay, well, I followed that and this happened.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: And.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: But the other thing, it's like sometimes you're leading and you just see, like the faith in the room begins to, you know. And it's not about external postures, but if you see hands in the air, like, all the volume gets louder or people moving, and it's like, okay, there's something here that we need to just roll with. Other times where you see more like a.
Just a peace or a tenderness or people weeping, and it's like, okay, we don't want to rush to the next thing. The other thing I've learned, which. Why, for me, it's really important I can see the congregation, but also that I can hear the congregation. And I've been times where, you know, you got the ears in and the lights and you can't see or hear anyone. So it's like, well, let's just put a CD on and like. But actually you can hear it. And at times you get to the end of a song, say, and you just hear people murmuring or beginning to sing. And what I've seen is sometimes when we try and lead in our own strength, you try and tell people, right, now, you're going to sing this, now you're going to do that.
That can be okay. But what's amazing is when something's happening and you're giving permission for.
So I'd say, like, I'm beginning to hear people just sing out, just, let's go for it and lead the way. And then others, as you feel more confident, join in with the song and. And you're releasing, but it's happening, not because you prepared it or planned it. Right after song three, we'll have a spontaneous singing moment because you're. Because you're listening. You're beginning to hear it murmuring away. And then you're like, right, it's happening. Let's go for it. You're pouring fuel on the fire. That's already happening. So that's Some of the ways I'm trying to discern that.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Yeah, And I love that. And in a sense for you, when you're in charge as well, you're leading the church and leading worship, you have that freedom for that. What does it feel like for you when you think you're seeing where the Lord is going?
What is the permission level to follow what the Holy Spirit is doing?
[00:08:04] Speaker B: I mean, I've always.
I mean, God is not a God of chaos.
And I think sometimes in circles where we. We love the Holy Spirit or we love his presence and we kind of champion chaos and just if it's free and spontaneous, then it's the Lord, which I just don't read a ton in the Bible, really.
And so my principle has always been that if the Holy Spirit is speaking to me about something, that he'll be speaking to all of us about something. And so generally what we tend to see in our environment is, you know, so I might feel like the Lord is saying something. So I might look out and I'm like, I feel like there's peace resting on the room. So, like. And because we co lead a lot, I'll often have the time and the space to be thinking about it. Someone else is leading and I'm looking. I might be like, there's peace in the room, says so often. And then sometimes, like a song might come into my head or I might feel like a moment or I think about something or there's a refrain. I tend to wait.
So I tend to get to that spot, you know, especially on a Sunday morning, we have quite a specific time slot that I'm not going to barge through. Because if I barge that, you know, if I bypass that time slot, like, is the altar call not important? Is the offering not important? Like, it all matters. Now, if we as a team feel like God's saying something that's totally different, but I don't want to do it alone, I want to do it with everyone. So I tend to wait. And what I tend to find is that as we've got better at hearing the Lord and identifying what he's doing in a room, we tend to find that it's like we've all sat down and had a meeting before and gone through the notes and then we get up, but we actually haven't.
So what will happen is I'll have a song on standby. You know, I feel like the Lord's saying, we're going to do you're beautiful. And then my mum will get up and go, I just feel like we need to look at the face of Jesus and tell him he's beautiful. And then I've got this song there. And I think sometimes as worship leaders you feel the pressure of like, well, if it's the Lord, I have to do it now. And I'm like sometimes. But most of the time if, if it's the Lord, it's his church and he's leading it and we go on the journey together. And so we probably have a, like I enjoy being submitted to my leaders because there is covering in that. And also then it actually becomes all about God, not about me. And it's much safer. Then it's not like I'm bringing my moment to shine. It's like, no, it's the Lord's moment and we're waiting on Him. And then we all do different things and obviously sometimes you take a risk. But is that kind of answered the question?
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But I think if points there is, there is permission to, to, to go a different direction if we need to.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. And we would. The way we would kind of broadly think behind the scenes like today would be a good example. So Chris, who is leading in the middle, I would call him like our anchor. And so his job is like, what's going on in the room. He's building the set list, he's got an eye on the clock, he's looking at what guys are doing at the side. He's paying attention to all that. Daniel and Sariah, really, I would call them more kind of like prophetic co leads and they would have full license. I, I just really want you to be going after the Lord and going after his presence. And to some extent I want the interaction between all of them. So depending on what you're doing as a worship leader, kind of depends on the role you're playing, if that makes sense. So you know, Chris generally always has his eyes open, he's looking out and he's thinking and that doesn't mean he can't do those things. Whereas Daniel, you couldn't interrupt him with his flag. He's going to go until he's, you know, and we love that about him. So, and so I think that's a strength and you can have both, not kill one for the other.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Just staying with you. Talk a little bit about. Because one of the things we've had to learn to do is lead the whole room in worship because there's sometimes a big run up to the front.
Talk about leading the whole room in worship and not just the front yeah.
[00:12:18] Speaker B: So if any of you guys have been to our church on a Sunday. The way I described the front is, it's kind of like everyone's on Red Bull. Like they kind of get. And then they kind of get down the front and they're just like, woo. You know, just.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: I.
Tim was talking about, he wants to hear what people are singing. We had to change our microphone because the singing was so loud.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: At the front and it was getting through their ears.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: So we, one of the reasons we have a monitors console at the side is because they, they have to ride all the levels because I just, I couldn't hear anything. You know, we would, we would do things and people would be shouting and I'd be like, I just, I couldn't tell you what song we're on. I have no light. It was.
Which is such a wonderful problem to have, I think. And, but also then what. And obviously we really, really prioritize this high praise thing. And I really believe in it. One of the dangers of those kind of high praise moments is that sometimes we can just get a bit carried away and get really excited. And sometimes it's like your eyes go off, Jesus, and you're really excited that you're having a big party.
And again, I really don't think that's like uber awful. I'm not like, oh, you wicked people. You came here and you know. But what we do often have to do is re center people. So what we will often have is like, you know, the Red Bull is at the front. Who after, like who after the first couple songs are all having a chat and I'm like, no, no, this was about Jesus. And so like we have these moments where it's like, hey, Jesus, we love you. And you watch as people go, oh no. Yeah, Jesus, I love like, like just being really serious.
And then, and then as you go throughout the room and there'll then be people at different stages. There's people normally about midway that are looking at the front rowers going, those lot are boring, bonkers. What's wrong with them? And like they're just kind of. And so I think for us it's. Or at least for me, I would see my role as, firstly, what is the Lord doing? And then secondly, how can I invite everyone in the room to focus on him in lots of different ways? So sometimes it's calling people to the front, come and dance or do something, you know, we do that. And other times it's just, hey, Lord, we love you. And I've found. And most of my feedback to my guys is what you'll tend to find when you first start leading worship is you're looking at Jesus and he's just so wonderful. And you just get really cross with everyone else because they just don't get it. You're like, you know, you're looking at everyone and you're like, do you not understand how amazing he is? And start singing now. Now. You know, and we've.
And we've all been in those rooms where it's like people just shout louder, louder and louder and it gets more and more awkward.
And as you can tell.
Yeah, that'll teach me.
And so.
And again, what I say to my guys about that is I always think it's more effective to invite people into a place of intimacy with you than to command them to shout harder. So my feedback is generally always, you know, when we do a. You know, so say we do goodbye yesterday. And it all lands and everyone's chattering, I tend not to go, stop it. Focus on Jesus.
I tend to go, Jesus, I love you. And I wait. And it's like people are invited into that invitation. I found that more effective and I think with some of my guys as well, it helps soften the heart rather than kind of just getting cross with people, which is sometimes understandable. You know, I mean, for some of us, when we get in and we've been in at 7 and we didn't want to be in at 7am, most of us don't wake up at that time and you're feeling frustrated. And so it's just kind of translating that.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: Tim, I think we're starting to touch on how do we teach the church to worship?
Because it's all good, well and good having a worship leader, but how do. How do we start the process of just inviting in and teaching how to worship?
[00:16:27] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think the relationship between the senior pastor and the worship leader is really, really important.
And again, that you're building a deeper trust for one another. If you have that, then as a senior pastor, you're more releasing of your worship pastor because you know that they're honouring and you've built a friendship and you've got more confidence to sort of cut them loose.
So I think we often. And I remember actually when I was at HDB with Nikki at one point saying, look, I think we need to teach on worship. It's all great singing and of course, worship is caught, but it is also taught.
And, you know, he's like, okay, yeah, great, let's do so that was a, you know, way of sort of thinking through that element.
I also think as a worship leader, sometimes we can be so caught on, like delivering a great set or time of worship, and we view things very much in the immediate. Right, this Sunday has to be amazing. But actually, the real challenge is how do you teach and cultivate a community of worshippers? Which means if you're going to push people from just singing songs and bouncing up and down at Goodbye yesterday, you've got to help them to take responsibility for their own worship.
You've got to teach them where actually the music stops. They don't sound like, oh, what do I do now? That actually, you can start thanking God in your own words. You can start singing your own melody. You can use your body in response of worship and actually teaching people that this happens not just on a Sunday, but throughout the week, so that when you come in on the Sunday again, you're worshiping out of the overflow rather than, oh, yeah, why am I here? Oh, yeah, God.
And so I think what we've tried to do is create spaces where it's like, right, we're going to create some space. This might be a bit awkward, but just try and find your own words to thank God, because he really cares and he really wants to hear what you have to say rather than what some songwriters written for you.
And so that might mean it gets a bit awkward, it's a bit messy, it takes people time to jump on. But actually, what you're doing and when you do that, weeks, months, years, you're setting a culture of worship which begins to change the dynamic. And I think as leaders, we also just need to be thinking through the long game rather than week to week. Great experiences.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah.
Talk a little bit about Joel, what we do in prayer, revival prayer, and how the worship is a little bit different.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: There it is in kind of how the whole night.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Yes. We do a prayer meeting every week on a Tuesday.
For us, it's probably been the best development place for worship leaders. We never designed it for that. I mean, actually, if I'm really honest with you, we announced we were going to do this prayer thing. We didn't expect expect anyone to show up. We did it. We set up in a little back room over there, and 100 people showed up, and we were like, oh, no. So we ran into here and we kind of stumbled on this model where we had. We have a couple of mics on the floor and acoustic guitar and a piano, and it's kind of Anything goes within reason.
But.
But we just.
We get stories and testimonies at the start. So people will come in, say, hey, has anyone got a story, a testimony of what God's done in their life? And it sometimes is quite hard work to get anything out of anyone. But you'll wait all night if you've got to. And people do come. And it's really interesting because the testimonies, I find, tend to set the tone for the night. So it's like people will come forward and start talking about. About friends getting saved. And it's like the Lord wants us to press into that. Or like, it's really interesting how again, he leads the nights.
And so we'll do that for a while then.
Then, I don't know, what, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, something like that. Then we'll invite everyone to stand. And we. We always say that in James, it says, draw near to God and he'll draw near to you. So we're like, hey, actually take a step in. Like, step into the space. The space isn't magical. But you taking a step and saying yes to the presence of God will make a huge difference.
So we have people step in, and so they'll kind of. People spread out all across this room.
And then what tends to happen is we'll open worship by generally just waiting on God. So it'll be like Dan will play keys, or whoever's on will play a pad will come on and we'll start playing. And generally the person who's opening will say, come, Lord, and then we will just wait. And you tend to stay stood in the center. And the worship guys know that until the person opening has stepped off, they wait.
So we'll play. And you might not even be saying anything, but we're just waiting and getting used to waiting on the Lord, like, just waiting for him to come, waiting for his presence to move for people's hearts. And again, it's. I mean, we have more time than a Sunday morning. So people are coming in from all kind. You know, people are coming in from work or putting their kids to bed or whatever. Everyone's coming in, but we have this time where it's reset and people really coming into a place of being ready to worship.
We generally will worship for an hour, something like that, on acoustic guitar. And sometimes it's great, sometimes. Sometimes it's really ropey. Like, sometimes it's really rough and different people will lead. And, you know, I don't see a set list, really. I mean, they do have a set list, but I'm not like super on it.
There are people that check it, but we do try. And what we're trying to do is teach them how to, how to lead worship and build set lists and if I'm really honest, sometimes try stuff, realize it doesn't work, and then come back to the table and go, what do I need to do? You know, so we. Lots of feedback. And so we'll worship for a bit and then we tend to minister. And what's really beautiful about revival prayer is every week is totally different.
So as worship leaders, you actually do have to start to learn what the Lord is doing in the room. Because the people are worshiping. No matter what, they're going for it, they're doing their thing. And sometimes it's over roaring. But especially if you've just got kind of out of tune acoustic guitar and a piano, like the people are over roaring and you're having to find what's the people, what's the Lord, what's leadership, what like. And it helps break all these things. And what will often happen is we'll worship for a bit and sometimes it's like we're into the holy of holies. Other times it's like, I don't know, we've even started worshiping and we've gone for an hour. And what's really good about the revival prayer space is then some. The leadership team can help re steer the worship. So you might get up and say, let's do this song. Or can we just bring it in for a moment? Or Dan, just play for a minute. And it helps us teach the worship leaders. And we've just seen so many of our guys go from being good singers to being worship leaders. In this environment, you start to learn about the Holy Spirit and what he's doing and actually as well learn how capable they are dynamically. So one of the things is like, it's a little bit. I think it's a little different now to what it used to be. I feel like, you know, long time ago, not long time ago, that was dangerous. And, you know, a lot of pastors used to all play guitar and know kind of four chords to sing vineyard songs. Almost all of my worship guys, and we love them.
[00:24:18] Speaker C: Capo changed my life.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: And almost all of my guys actually can't lead worship in a small group. They don't play guitar.
You know, they don't. I mean, some of them don't know some of those songs. And so for us it was like, okay, so we're, we're learning something Slightly different. Where actually for some of the worship guys, they actually have to learn what it's like to lead worship when you don't have a big sound system and a band and like, what's that dynamic and how much. How much does your voice lead a room? Because, like, I would be really hot on that. I mean, it's a bit ironic at the moment, isn't it? But I would be really hot on that. Like, do you have full control of your vocal? Can you lead with your voice? You don't need to tell people to come on, get more into it. If your vocal can lead people into that place, like, how much. So it's a good environment for us because it strips everything right back. Is that kind of.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no. Brilliant. And one of the things we found on our Tuesday nights, because it's acoustic, it's kind of harder to lead worship, and it's also harder to worship.
And so you have to push through because worship is always a sacrifice as well. It's a laying down, so you're pushing through. And we found that then when people came on a Sunday, worship went to bang first song.
They were ready to go because it was welling up in the more week.
And so when we gathered as a church, it was just a celebration, but it certainly would start in the week and be brewing all the way through. Whether it's revival prayer, whether it's youth or whether it's student church or whatever it is.
There's this rumble of worship and then whoosh on a Sunday, the adoration. And then we go back into the rest of the week worshiping every. Every single night.
Tell me a little bit about song selection. Does it really matter? What do you, you know, you know, when. On the whole idea of, you know, how do we. How do we put a group of songs together that lead us into the presence of the Lord.
[00:26:30] Speaker C: Again?
I'd be asking a whole bunch of questions and have a few things in my head. I mean, obviously it's kind of God. Is there anything particular?
I think one of the things I bang on a lot to our guys about is we have to sing the gospel, you know, so if Paul talks about, I sing with my mind and with my spirit.
We obviously, we. We want those moments of spontaneity which we've been talking about, where people can bring their own words, articulation of gratitude to God, but we also need to be singing with our mind. And actually the story of the gospel is the thing that like, oh, yeah, this is why I'm here. This is what's changed my life. And I think you see it in the room when you're suddenly declaring truth that isn't in any way just based on a feeling. It's like, yeah, Jesus died, he was raised to life, ascended to the heavens, seated on. You can feel the room just explode. And so I think, and again, if we're going to be a place where we're constantly seeing unchurched people coming in, we want them to be understanding and hearing the story of Jesus.
And so again, not as a rule, but most weeks are polite. We need at least something that, that reminds us of this story. So I'd be thinking about that. I'd be thinking about dynamics, you know, if everything is like mid tempo, you know, just death by intensity, you know, that's. And it's been an interesting thing I've watched, you know. So again, the Vineyard. Is he talking about Joe, which was such a thing on intimacy, tenderness, connection.
And I think we've seen a move where it has been more about intensity.
And again, there's lots I've loved about that, the raw, the wildness, the passion. But I do think we need space for all these different things. So I'd be, we want to celebrate dance passion. We want to like, come on, you know, the roar, the fire. But we also need the space and the beauty of the. And the simplicity and the intimacy in our worship. So I'd be wanting to ensure that there's some movement, dynamics, variety.
Again, I do think that Paul phrase of singing with my spirit, singing with my mind is helpful. Like making sure we've got enough that stirs our intellects, but also enough that just you hear one line and you sing it again and again and again. And actually what's for me been helpful is a number of years ago when I started to work a lot more with the black majority church, we'd have these amazing conversations with the worship leaders who, like you dudes, you know, you just sing all these words and it's like, you know, how do you worship? It's just all these hymns and words. And he said, like, when we've got a good line, we just want to sing it again and again and again and again. Because what we want is for it to go deep, deep, deep, like the peeling of the onion, the layers deeper to the heart of who we really are. And I think there's something very true about that, that sometimes just singing a line, we're doing it this morning, you know, you're worthy, you're worthy, you're worthy, you're actually allowing the truth of that just to get that bit deeper rather than rushing on. And I think, again, we live in such an overly stimulated culture where we're so quickly distracted. To actually go deep in something isn't always easy. We need to encourage our churches to really do that journey of depth.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: I love that.
What about also how we've chosen songs or written songs for the next generation in the sense.
I don't know if we did it intentionally, but we have a very young church here, and some of the songs we do, you know, we were laughing at lunchtime would not be my choice.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: Can you sing Hallelujah. The lion of Judah has overcome.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: I don't know what that song is.
I mean. I mean, I can't sing that song. I can't fit those words in the.
In that quickly.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Honestly, like, you. You need to come on a Sunday morning, pray that Aaron does this is the gospel. And watch my dad clap. It's the. The best thing you've ever seen in your life.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Another one. No melody.
Everyone's dancing, but there's no rhythm. The rhythm's wrong. It's not four, four time, you know, and it's like, I. I mean, I don't know what to do with that and work. But worship is a sacrifice. So there I am worshiping the Lord. But talk, talk, talk about it a little bit.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I. I spoke a little bit about this at the pastor's thing yesterday, and sometimes I think we don't give our congregation enough credit sometimes. So, like, you know, people go to Glastonbury, they hear a song once and they're singing it from the rooftop. Sometimes people can't sing the songs because they're just not very good. And that's like, that. We just need to have an honest conversation about that. Like, if.
So sometimes I struggle with that. You know, I struggle a little bit. This is a personal thing with the, like, is it in a congregational key? Is it this? Is it that? And I'm like, I don't see much of that everywhere else. And people seem to be fine. It's just in church, people seem to be struggling. So maybe there's a different conversation that needs to be had. And I think we've definitely found from a writing point of view, I'm always with. With my guys, we're always talking about, like, would you say that sentence if you were speaking, or would you just say it? Because it's. It sounds churchy. So I always, like, I'm always going back to that. Like, I love beautiful Lyric. And sometimes there's a moment for it, but, like, I always think, I'm like, if. If it does. If it's just kind of holy and churchy and it fits, but someone walked into church and saw it on the screen and just wouldn't understand what you were saying.
Is it Right? There are some songs that it is. I don't really like making a rule, but we ask that question in our writing space in terms of, like, young people bringing new songs in. I mean, I think we. We try a lot of stuff, right? Like, we're okay with, like. I mean, it's got to be biblically accurate, but we're okay with trying things. I'm okay with trying stuff even when I don't like it. There's lots of songs we do. I don't particularly like.
I'm just being real, but. But, yeah, I mean, one, I was adamant. Praise was a time. Terrible song. You know, Praise.
I remember they led it. They led it two or three times. And I was like, chris, this is never going to catch on.
No one's gonna like this. It's never gonna be good. And. And now I sing it. So who else That I am an instrument. And Emily and Daniel were probably sending me that song for two, two months. And I wasn't saying no to it. I was like, look, you man did it. I'm not interested in this.
[00:33:46] Speaker C: It's.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: I'm not interested. And then Emily led it at a morning of a conference, and I was like, oh, that's good, isn't it?
And then I led it that night, and now everyone thinks I wrote it, which is phenomenal. So I often joke with Daniel, if you could introduce it, then I'll take it from there.
But I think you have to try things. Like, you have to be okay with trying things. We would have a kind of rule where, like, if you're going to do a new song, only do one new song in a set. And I would put stuff around it that people know so that then, you know, it's a journey. And I think you're just getting lots of feedback. I would also. I personally, I think it's really important for you to have really good relationship with people on your team. I will pretty much try anything if I'm convinced the person bringing it has spent time with Jesus this week and that's where they've got this thing. Because I think often what I'll find, you know, is that actually when someone gets up and they take something out of their secret place onto the stage, normally the Lord comes and it's kind of irrelevant of whether the song was cool. And then you, later on you find out whether it's a good song or it was just what the Lord was doing. But I, I pay attention to that. Like, I remember we did a.
This thing in Rotterdam and this guy got up and he wanted us to do this song. It was like, oh, make me a house, make me a house of prayer. And I'd never heard it before and it was an absolute train wreck. Like, I mean, it was amazing. The moment was amazing, but we were all over the place and Chris was trying to sing it and he didn't know it and I was trying to sing it. It was like disaster. So I didn't really think anything of it. And then like a few months later, I woke up on a Sunday morning and I just had this. I couldn't get this song out of my head. So I did it at church and it was like this amazing moment. It felt really good and people were getting healed. All this stuff was going on. And I was like. That felt just more like God doing something in my life. And on the, on the other hand, like something like that Singh Hallelujah. The lion of Judah song. I'm pretty sure Daniel is singing that 24 7. So when he brings it and then he finds his lion flag at home and he does all of that, he's actually bringing something from his secret place as well. So I will take. But also what I won't do then is when some of my guys come and they're like, hey, we really like this song. And I'm like, ah, you've listened to it once. You're not. I'll see if they keep coming back with it. But that's might not be right. That's probably just me.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: So again, you've touched, you know, just one song. What about introducing new songs? How, how do. How would you go about.
Because often worship leaders get tired of songs before the worshippers.
[00:36:30] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And you've got to remind people of that. And you know, some of our worship leaders who feel on staff, you know, they're in staff meetings and prayer meetings and Sundays and conferences and so praise or holy forever. Not again, please.
But you have to remind them.
Most people, Most people come to church, they're not worship music junkies. They're listening to everything.
They might sing that song once a week. So it's reminding yourself of, you know, serving the people.
But we also. So one of the things we've really gone after is trying to release songs from within our community.
Tapping into a bit of what I was saying earlier.
And in order to do that, you've got to fight for that. So one of the things we've done is.
And I'm not saying everyone should do this, and I got this from Hillsong and that they had it even more extreme, but we translate 50% of the material, ideally be songs written from within our church and our community. And again, the reason Hillsong did that was to force their writers to write songs.
Because if you're, like, bored of singing that song, well, write another one, pal. You know, so it's like.
So I think there is something of a discipline that then.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Can you just say that again? Just say what you just said again. That they hit that they force 50%.
[00:38:01] Speaker C: Of the songs to be written from within our church.
[00:38:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know that it's. It landed okay because I think they thought it was a good idea, but I don't know if it. Can you just say it again?
[00:38:14] Speaker C: Yeah. So 50% of the songs on a Sunday would be written from our church and our community. Now, we've been writing for years, and so that's. And I think that is something I feel there's a calling on our church. So some of you pastors, you know, the. All worship leaders, that would be a terrible idea, because 50% of their songs could well kill the worship expression of your church.
I think we.
I think. I think we have to be honest that there's a gift in this. And some, you know, so it's not going to be the grace on every church. I do think I would love to see more churches at least singing some things that are coming out of their house than their community, because you capture the longing, the vision, the journey. You know, you're sitting under the teaching of the leadership team, and then you're putting to music. You know, it's the great story of heart of worship. You know, that's the journey the Church of Soul Survive had been on about stripping away the music and finding God outside of the music. And Matt puts to song the journey of the church. And then actually, what do you find out? Many other churches profoundly resonate with that. So that's what we've done to sort of force our guys to keep writing, to keep that creativity going. Now, of course, some of the songs we lead work better than others.
I think we've also tried to teach our church to pick up new songs as well. And I think you can do that.
I remember we did this at hdb, actually getting people More familiar. And for young people, as you said, like my kids, they hear one song on the radio and they literally can sing the whole. And I'm like, I'm now like, iPad on stage with all the words. And that's just to my own songs, you know, it's like, so.
But I think you can teach a congregation. So we probably most Sundays or quite frequently would have a new song on a Sunday.
But what we do is if we've got a new song, we try to be intentional that you don't just sing it once and never do it again over the next few weeks, you keep doing it.
You take time to really get that song in the hearts of people when you're doing a new song. I think you alluded to this. I'd surround it with something really familiar.
So I think you can do that. But I think these new songs can be such a gift. Breathe freshness of life in our worship.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: So, yeah, brilliant, Brilliant. Thank you, Amelia. Let's just see if there's a few questions. Yeah, take Joel's. There you go.
He can always take mine. Right, we've got a. We've got a few more. Few more moments. If you have a really good question. Okay, no pressure, no pressure.
Where are you? Amelia's going to bring a microphone over.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Where are you?
[00:41:23] Speaker A: That's one of the.
[00:41:29] Speaker B: How do you balance involving all ages.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: In worship and also being able to have really deep worship times as well?
We. We try and balance on a Sunday.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: Morning and we tend to have kids.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: In for a lot of worship and there's this constant sort of back and.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Forth, forth with leadership between an asses.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: Team is, you know, wanting to have the kids, wanting to have all ages involved, but sometimes it's distracting as well for the parents and they need time.
[00:42:00] Speaker B: Just with the Lord.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: And so how do you balance that?
[00:42:03] Speaker C: I'd love to hear how you guys do that, because.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: This feels like a trap.
So, I mean, practically on a Sunday, we have kids worship and they have their own worship.
The youth, which. How old would they be when they start for that?
[00:42:27] Speaker A: 11.
[00:42:27] Speaker B: 11. Powerful. The youth are in.
Honestly, for me, I want. See, I grew up doing loads of kids worship stuff. I grew up when I would come into church when I was young.
Yeah, no, I am, I am. We're getting there. We're starting with the better bit. And when I would come into church, what would happen is my dad would bring me in. He would be setting up the chairs. This was in Southend. And I would go down to the kids worship and just play the drum kit whilst no one was in. That's where I learned how to play drums. And that's like where it all started for me.
And actually in our church in Southend we just had like the most amazing kids worship people. I remember it, they just wrote these like hilarious songs and.
And they probably wrote more kids worship songs than anything.
And a whole bunch of us grew up in that space and then all became musicians and I actually started leading worship on these old school great Big God albums. And if you want to try and go to school as a 10 year old and if people google your name, Great big God comes up and a video of you with blow up guitars comes. It's a painful school experience.
You would hope as you get older it stops happening. I was recently in a green room that I walked into to find that song playing on the big screens with Jeremy Riddle and everyone watching it laughing. So these things go with you.
I think to ask that. What I would say is, I would say what God has told you to do in your church is always what you do. But for me what I get excited about is that we would have worship in every sphere of our church that would fully engage the people in that sphere of their church that they could take home and worship with and that we would develop worshipers across every age group. So my desire is we have youth worship on a Wednesday and we have student worship on a Thursday. And you see like Daniel got saved in youth and he did the talent show and then he did the youth worship and then now he's in students a bit more, he's on Sundays. I would, I mean my dream is that we would in kids worship, see more kids worshiping and that they'd be learning to play instruments and all that stuff. Does it practically fully happen at the moment? No, but we're on the journey of it. So we have our own worship for kids down there that is totally designed for them and it's a lot more focused on dancing and actions. And they have different set lists but they have tracks, we give them everything. They've got a nice little sound system. We want to do it really well. And part of the desire for us to have a bigger space actually is that we could have a bigger and better kids space for them to fully.
And same with the youth. They do something and the students do something different and then we. So for us it's about the story and doing it in different space. That kind of this political answer.
[00:45:16] Speaker C: And I'll just add, so we've done different things now we do Have a couple in our church called Nick and Becky Drake who run a think of worship for everyone who've actually written a whole bunch of amazing songs that. That sung in schools, sung in churches.
So worth checking that out for resources. Worship for everyone. But what I love about what they've done is their vision is that you don't do special songs for kids that kind of are all about entertaining them.
Rather actually all the values around worship that we'd have spirit led, encounter of Christ, intimacy, connection, declaration of truth, all of that would be packed in for the children so that there's a belief that they can encounter God, they can be filled with the spirit, they can worship spirit and in truth. And I think we found actually in going after that, that's been much better for the children and then for the adults. It doesn't suddenly feel like, why am I singing, you know, if I were a Butterfly?
If you grew up singing that one. But.
So yeah, that's what. But it is hard and I think it needs constant discussion and evolution.
For many churches it's worship and then PA guys are a bolt on.
But I know here because we've had.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: The privilege of working with Paul and.
[00:46:43] Speaker C: I've spoken to you, Joel.
Your PA team are like part of your worship team. Can you just tell us a bit about that?
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Yes.
See, I have to speak well of my sound guys, otherwise the mic goes off, doesn't it?
I remember the first time I went out to Bethel in California.
And obviously Bethel Church is famous for a lot of things and obviously the worship is one of them. But I remember walking into the room and being like, this sounds unbelievable. Like it is phenomenal. And it wasn't just like good bands and good worship leaders. Because actually I've been in loads of spaces where you have a great band and a great worship leader. It sounds awful.
And I was just kind of a bit blown away. And I stood by the sound desk and the guitarist came from the front and walked right to the back and went up to the sound engineer and he went, how's my guitar sounding? And the sound engineer looked him in the eye and said, awful.
And then he gets this thing up and he's like, this is how much I'm having to do with it. You need to go and sort it. And the guitarist went, oh, okay, thank you. And then walked off. And I was like, what just happened? Because I was like, I've never seen that happen in church. I've seen like near church splits over the sound guy versus the band.
And what, what for Me was kind of a bit mind blowing was the sound engineer was part of the story right the way from the start, right the way to the beginning. He helped tune the drums, he was working with the musicians, he was involved in the albums.
And the thing was, no matter who I talked to, whether it was a camera op or a front of house guy or a guitarist, they could all tell me the same thing. They knew the vision, they knew the sound they were going after, they were all working together and it wasn't about. Because I think sometimes what happens in worship teams is it all becomes about us all having our individual creative expression of what we want. You know, so the sound engineer has his sound, so that's his sound and then I have my sound and then the bass player has their sound and it's like, well, you've got three sounds and unless you're really lucky, they're probably not all going to work together. Which tends to be why we have pretty chaotic church sound music, honestly.
And so what for us was like, okay, let's all come to the table and let's submit all of our individual preferences to what we think the Lord is saying and what serves the people and then we will build based off that thing. So broadly speaking, we have one show file on our desk. There's not like we've got some really good engineers and they're all quite different and they would probably all naturally have different show files. But they've all agreed that we. A shofar's like the horn is of the bigger.
[00:49:31] Speaker C: He's saying shofar.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: You're taking.
[00:49:38] Speaker C: You just have one on your desk.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Yeah, one.
[00:49:45] Speaker C: Chromer said it was the way forward. I mean, I don't know but so.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: Like when you log into your computer, you have a user. What often I find in most churches is there'll be four or five users and they're all totally different because everyone has their own way of working. What we say here is, no, no, no, we all are coming under one vision. We're all going to work together, we're going to submit all our ideas together and we're going to. So that we serve. So that when you come one week it sounds the same as when you come the next week.
And then. And the guitarists don't turn up with a 12 string guitar going, oh, I bought this this week. This is cool. It's like cool practice at home. We you like, we have house gear. So like people don't bring, you know, so the drums don't change, you know, so Jake, who played Kit this Morning. Like, amazing drummer in his dreamland. He would have, you know, about 20 drums all around him. It would look like the 80s. They'd be like, that would be him. He loves to play like that. But for most of our drummers, that would be a bit more challenging, so we don't do that. So Jake submits his individual gifting to the sound and we have an amazing drummer. But he cares more that the worship is phenomenal for everyone and that we can buy in and that we can do it effectively.
So it's really about everyone coming and working together. I mean, practical tips. Like, I remember when we first went on this journey, I got three different recordings of songs and I sent them to all our sound engineers and I said, which one's your favorite? And they all came back with the same answer. And I was like, that's weird. I thought you all have a different sound.
And it was like, we do, but some things are better than others. I was like, aha. There is right and wrong. So, like, it's how you can go on the journey. I've always found if you can audibly show what you're trying to get to, it gives people somewhere to aim in the same way. Like, visually. I know if I want my dad to weigh in on branding, there's no point talking to him about it. I need to draw it, show it to him, and then he'll go, oh, I don't like that. I do like that. It's exactly the same with audio and worship.
Like, show your guys what you're thinking about. Like, play them a video. Like, go, this is. Why does it not sound like this? Ask questions. And they'll probably go, because you're not spending enough money. And then that's. But that's the. The, you know, part of the journey. I don't know if that answers you. I mean, there's no.
You spoke, Tim, obviously, about with kind of what happened with Heart of Worship and how that was a moment from a church that became a song for the church. And I guess for both you, with those broader capital C church perspectives you have, what do you see, particularly for the uk, you talked about kind of UK songs for the UK church.
[00:52:58] Speaker C: What do you see God is doing.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: In that big picture UK church that might maybe encourage us all with kind of the glimpses we're seeing, that whole we'll prophesy in part. But what are you sensing, that big picture of what the Lord is stirring for our nation in this moment of time?
[00:53:18] Speaker C: Well, I think it is encouraging, you know, so I'm in certain conversations where people are saying, you know, UK church has lost its voice.
And, you know, there was a season where all these songs from the UK were basically being sung in America, but that's not happening at the moment. And you can think, oh, that's a shame, we've got to somehow crack America. Or you think, you know what, we're just going to focus on our local church and see what God does. What I think I see is all over. Amazing, grassroots, organic, beautiful things, rising up teams, friends writing songs, passionate about their. And that's what I love here. When I sort of met Joel on the team, and just the passion not to try and write a great song. But what they talk about is what God's doing in the church.
And seeing that there's so many things bubbling away, that feels pure, it feels exciting. I think the other thing in the uk, which there's real growth in terms of diversity of sound. I think, for example, with our church, there'd be massive diversity in the musicianship and the songwriters now, so that's bringing something different.
So I think things are bubbling away and I just think it's gonna be very exciting to see what happens. But it's not just one or two leading the way. There's, like, so much out there that is beautiful that almost the world hasn't quite heard yet. And I've no doubt there'll be a moment where suddenly, you know, something breaks through and it'll lead the way for a whole bunch of other music. But I feel really encouraged and excited. And I think what I feel is there's a.
It's healthy, there's a purity to it that excites me.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: I think when, at least in our environment, when you see lots of salvation, which I think lots of churches are talking about, we're starting to see. See people saved. I think what's been really encouraging for us is you start to write the songs that are the story of the people that are being saved. And it gives this weight to the songs that weren't there before, because suddenly when you're singing, you know these. These words and you're watching people, and these are the words of the songs where they first met Jesus. And it. It really changes something. And so I think what's really exciting across England is as salvation goes up, the songs that are written get to be part of this story. And so they actually tell a story. And I think sometimes there's. Sometimes the truth is, for some songs, there's just no depth to them.
But actually, what's exciting for me is songs being written in context where there is depth and story that becomes really exciting. And I think from a sound point of view, I think because people are getting saved so young and actually a lot of the guys honestly have no idea about what went before. And it kind of means you are getting a really new sound because there's no.
They don't know what you should be singing in church. They end up singing, Sing alleluia the lion of Judah is overcome. But what I'm, I think there is something really fun and fresh.
And what feels really nice to me is a lot of the new stuff. It's not, doesn't feel like it's perfectly fitting in a bracket, which is really exciting. It's not like CCM or gospel or singer songwriter. It's like I don't know where it's going. It's kind of doing something new. And I think it's supposed to, I think it's supposed to do something new and it's supposed to be relationship with the Holy Spirit. That's where the songs come from. Not from the kind of. Here are the four ways to write a great Christian song. Because I just, I haven't managed it yet, but if you crack it, let me know because it would help.
[00:57:25] Speaker A: I think the interesting thing about songs, Worship. You know, I've been around the church for a few years now.
There are seasons and there are seasons when God moves and there are barren times when we think not a lot is happening. But underground lots is happening.
And if you ask me what's happening now, I think there's just what Tim said, there's tons happening and it's bubbling under the ground.
And the great thing about those seasons is you never know where it's going to break out.
Okay? And it could break out anywhere. It doesn't have to break out here. It doesn't have to break out. At Gas street.
The Lord could break out in the smallest church in the northeast of England.
And you just start writing the songs and there's just, there's an eruption there and suddenly songs start coming and you know when you're in the harvest, you can't always see the wheat from the test. There's so much that's happening. But I, I think we're in one of those seasons where the spirit of God is hovering over the church and I, I, I, I mean he could break out anywhere. That's why you're here in any of your churches, in any of your meetings. And you never know when it's going to happen.
And he loves to surprise us. And he loves to take the small and the weak and sometimes the things that people have laughed about and joked about to profound the wise.
And that is. So where are we? I think we're just at that point where at any moment, songs will explode out, and when they do, they'll just keep coming. They'll be coming everywhere. Because once the spirit starts moving and there are fires everywhere, but right now, it could happen anywhere. And this is one of the most exciting parts of when God is moving across a nation.
So what that means is for every single person here, who knows what's going to happen on Sunday, who knows what's going to happen at your prayer meeting next week, who knows what's going to happen in your little worship gathering. What song is about to explode?
Okay, we need to stop. I could just keep going with these guys all afternoon, but we need to stop. You know what I would love to do is if we've got.
If we've got, like, pastors and their worship leader, would you just stand up together? So if you're a pastor and you've got your worship leader.
[01:00:22] Speaker B: Together.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: Move closer. Move closer to them if you can. It's all right. Gone. They won't.
Okay.
And would you guys pray for them? Would you just pray that this season would break out?
[01:00:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Lord, we thank you for these people. Thank you for the gift of team.
And Lord, I just pray that you pour out favor on their friendship, their relationship. Lord, I pray that they learn to champion each other better. They learn to really listen and understand each other better.
I pray that there'd be so much, much joy in when they get together and they discuss and they plan and they process what you're doing. But, Lord, I pray that you would. It'd be like you'd sharpen their gifts and that the sum of the parts would be so much greater. And Lord, we just pray that we would see worship leaders and senior pastors working together in an amazing way to do all these things we're talking about to see a move of worship, to see a culture of worship being built in our churches that brings glory to you and facilitates this incredible move of God. We're believing for.
[01:01:51] Speaker B: Unity, and we thank you for family.
And I pray that you would.
You would be the cord that holds these people together, that unites them and connects them. And Lord, we ask that you would strengthen and pull that cord closer. And God, that the worship that is released from these houses would be worship that pleases you first and foremost. That you would pour your oil out on every person in this room. But we pray for these people, that you would anoint them and that you would speak into covenant relationships that are relationships for you and unto you, Lord, that you would blow up upon these people. You would blow in their churches. And God, I pray as they come back, their teams would see this unity. They wouldn't know why. There would just be this unity, this oneness. And Lord, I pray that you would put your authority on each of these, to know you and to sing your songs and to lead your people into worship. And that the authority would not be one or the other, but you would pull. It would be an authority that is a releasing authority, that you. You would be given the glory. That, Lord, I rebuke any competition or, you know, just fighting or any of that. And that we as we as Levites would humbly submit to our pastors and that our pastors would have the language and feel like they had the tools and just know how to. How to be connected and that your presence and your love would be that that connects us. So, Lord, would you release your anointing and your blessing. We pray. Amen.
[01:03:28] Speaker A: Now, everyone stand up. Stand up.
Tim, don't go away. I want you to stretch out your hands towards Tim. And we're going to pray for Gastri. We're going to pray for light, that light in the city of Birmingham, so the Lord hears all our prayers to go for it. Just pray, prophesy, speak over that church. Lord, we thank you for the church of England, Lord, we thank you for the history, for the heritage, for the men and women who've given their lives to serve you, Lord. And we now pray that we pray for this church right in the center of Birmingham. That is a light, that is a worshiping house that loves the presence of the Holy Spirit, that is raising the next generation, that is multicultural, that stands for truth, that is not compromising on your word. And, Lord, we say, would you stretch out your hand upon this church and would you bless it, Lord?
Would you so release the floodgates of heaven upon this church, finances, salvation, healing. And, Lord, I pray for Tim and Rachel and their team. I pray that the anointing of the Holy Spirit spirit would be on them to light a fire in this country, Lord, if it just stays in Birmingham, it's not enough. Lord, we pray that what they're doing and what they've started would spread across the United Kingdom. And that, Lord, I thank you for this man. I thank you for his heart. I thank you for his story and his journey. And Lord, I thank you that it's just starting. So Lord, we just pray and we bless him and we ask you to release your power upon him.
And everyone said Amen. Tim, thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to the Chroma Charge podcast. If you enjoyed this message, you can like and subscribe. You can also join us in person or online every Sunday at Cromer Church.
[01:05:35] Speaker B: For more information about us, including our.
[01:05:37] Speaker A: Ministries, events, worship and how to donate, visit our website at Chroma Church.
