Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Welcome to the Kerma Church podcast.
[00:00:08] This morning, I want to talk to you guys about undignified worship, and I want to tell a little bit of our story as a church. For some of you, you've been here since day dot.
[00:00:21] You've been around for the whole journey. You've seen the whole thing. Some of you.
[00:00:27] Some of you, maybe this is your first Sunday, and you're turning up and you are like, what is wrong with them? Like, what is going on? Why all these crazy people down the front? What are they doing? You know, if you saw something strange, like a flag, it probably was like, you're just like, what? You know? And then for some of you in this room, you are the wild ones, and we love you. I love you. Nothing better for a worship leader than some wild worshipers. And I want to humbly say to you this morning, I really think God has something for us as a church. I really think we're on the edge of some more breakthrough with worship.
[00:01:02] Some of you guys, if you've been at the evening services, it's felt like we're just starting to break through and take new ground, like something's happening in the worship. And my favorite thing as a worship leader is you stood back and you get to look out into the room. And I always look out into this room, and there's always hunger in the room. People are always hungry. And sometimes it's just like, how do we step into that next encounter with the Lord? And that's what I kind of want to talk about this morning. So I'm gonna start with the story.
[00:01:32] Okay, so 30 years ago, I was not born.
[00:01:37] My dad moved back to Essex Southend, which is why I sound the way I do. And he moved to Plant a church in Southend. How many of you guys have been to Southend?
[00:01:48] Oh, there's more than I thought. Okay, so you guys know all the TV series. Everything you've seen is totally true. It could not be more accurate. So dad moves back to Southend Plant Church. And if you've been to Southend, there's like a high street that runs straight down the middle, and there's, like these kind of. Kind of arc tunnels, but they're, like, really short. And in these little tunnels, there are people busking all the way down, like, playing music.
[00:02:14] And so to cut a long story short, my dad meets a bunch of these buskers. They're like, hey, we just got saved. He's like, hey, I'm starting a church. They're like, okay, we'll come and we'll lead worship And I don't think he really had a church at that point. He was like, great. And so they started a church in a bar. And this was in the days when you could smoke in a bar, so you literally couldn't see to the back of the bar. And there were all these people from all kinds of walks of life, these buskers who were kind of only just saved. Substances in the air that my dad still doesn't know what they were.
[00:02:46] And they would just worship and tell the gospel and people were giving their lives to Jesus, getting saved and healed. And it was genuinely remarkable.
[00:02:56] There was nothing safe about it. All the normal things that probably should make a church work didn't happen.
[00:03:04] And people came to the Lord. And in that space, my mom comes and gets saved. And two years later, she books a meeting with my dad and asks him out.
[00:03:18] And, well, he wasn't going to say no, was he?
[00:03:23] Further down the line, they get married. Me and my sister come along. And when my mom is pregnant with me in the church, kind of all the different guys, they were like all musicians. Like, everyone was kind of played something or something else. And they were all arguing over whether I was going to be a drummer or a guitarist. They just kind of all agreed I was going to be broke. And so when I was born, I came into an environment of worship. Like, I came into a space where music was a big priority, worship was a big priority, and the presence of God being in the meetings was really normal. And my earliest music memories, I used to have this, like, djembe kind of metal hand drum. Any parents who have kids with these, I honor you in this moment. This loud, loud thing. And I used to play it all the time. And there was a group of guys in the church called the Psalm Drummers. I used to think they were the coolest people on the planet. And I would play bongos with them.
[00:04:20] And then I also. I had a guitar teacher who was in the church. He used to do these, like, Saturday lessons with everyone. And then I ended up having private lessons with him. To this day, I am still not sure he has ever called me by my name. He refers to me as Boy. That's it. He's like the most brutal guitar teacher you've ever met. I left almost every lesson crying.
[00:04:41] First service, I got some Rs. I was like, my dad just told me to toughen up and say, I grew up in this environment where music was really present in my life, and I loved it. And there were kind of worshipers in the church, and I understood that. And the presence of God was in the room, but I didn't kind of understand that they were all kind of together.
[00:05:02] And you got to understand, every day of my life I have known Jesus. I've never had a day where I don't. And so when you kind of. When you don't know what you have, you don't know what you have. And so it was just all normal to me. I didn't really think anything of it. And I still remember being like a younger kid.
[00:05:22] We ended up worshiping in all these different spaces. And I remember there was one lady who. She would come out of the aisle and worship in the middle of the aisle.
[00:05:33] And it probably actually wasn't kind of as rowdy as you lot are. So everyone was kind of in their seats. Pretty British about it. And she would come out and stand in the aisle and she would just. I mean, I can't even describe it. She would shout, she would scream, she would wave her hands, she'd kind of run. She just. I just remember being like. And have you ever taken a small kid to a wild worship space? And they're like, what is that? Like, that was me. I would just be pointing, like, what's going on? And I remember grabbing my dad and saying, like, why does she worship like that? I don't understand what's wrong with her. Like, has something happened? I just was. And I still remember him saying to me. He looked me in the eyes and he said, you know, when some people know what Jesus has saved them from, they worship differently. And I was so young, I didn't know her story. And later on, I just. She. She. And. And the thing is, she was still in the process of her healing at this point, and I. I learned that she had all kinds of evil things done to her. She'd been in all kinds of environments that were really hard. And the Lord, just as she worshiped, just slowly restored everything. She, to this day, is an absolute miracle. The things God has done in her life and how. How she stands, you would never know. You would only know when she worships.
[00:06:52] So I grew up in that. And then when I was about 11, we moved here to Leicester and I was our first worship leader. I had this little kind of classical acoustic guitar with a hole in. And I had an even higher voice than I currently do, if you'll believe it.
[00:07:11] I do think my voice has broken, but at that point it hadn't. And I led worship in a small group. In the small group, and. And church grew really quickly. We went from the four of us in a front room to you know, honestly getting this building not long after. And it, you know, church was busy and good and there was so much good and we were really good at some things. You know, we, we were, we had good leadership structures and small groups were great and food was good and the coffee was good and people, people loved the food and the coffee.
[00:07:47] But if the Holy Spirit left the room, I don't know if much would have changed.
[00:07:52] That's the truth. And those of you that know our story know that it's kind of a two part story. And we came to this point in the second part where, to be honest with you, you know, maybe this is just us as a family. Definitely me, I've become way too impressed with what I could do.
[00:08:12] We were really good at what we did. We were really proud of what we did, but we weren't dependent on the Holy Spirit. And there was a point where we were like, we have to give the keys to the church back to the Holy Spirit.
[00:08:26] Now Pastor Ricardo, who's in Colombia where my parents are now, he says the Holy Spirit is your pastor.
[00:08:34] I want to find this Reinhardt Bonnke quote for you. Love Reinhardt. He said, the less the Holy Spirit we have, the more cake and coffee we need to keep church going. Nothing against cake or coffee, but there is no substitute for the Holy Spirit.
[00:08:50] So about, about seven years ago, we started this, this new journey with the Lord where we said, okay, Lord, we'll lay down anything you want us to lay down. We just have to have you. We have to have your presence. We have to, you have to be here. If you're here, we're good.
[00:09:08] And there were all these different milestones. And pretty much overnight church changed, the worship changed, the people changed, and it was like a wild ride. We were just there to be part of. And I remember there were like a couple of like significant milestones on the journey, and we're still on the journey. And I remember there was, some of you might have been here. There was a guy, his name was Robbie Dawkins. He preached like it was like a one off night. I can't even remember what it was. And I was leading worship. And like we didn't open worship in the same way we do. We did not have this kind of mosh pit area. The chairs were pretty further forward. And we started worshiping. We were probably about to quite abruptly start worship. And I remember he hadn't started speaking and he just marched down to the front and honestly marched in a way that I thought he was coming to take me out. Like, he had like this direct, like. And he walked right the way down and he got right to the front of the stage and his legs, he put his legs up against the stage and he gave me that, like, you know, you get like a dad smile, like that kind of, it's all gonna be all right. And he gave me that. And then he just worshiped like that for the whole service.
[00:10:17] And as he did it, literally, I remember it was like one or two people started stepping out. They were the. They were the bolder ones, admittedly, but one or two just started stepping out and I kind of thought that was a one off night. And then we would find on Sundays, people started coming down to the front. Now sometimes it was like one or two. So everyone's in there in their seats, sometimes with their hand on the safety handle on the front. And there were people all out in the front. And slowly it was one, then it was two, then it was a few. Now it kind of feels like all of you are there. And we've had to make the zone bigger. But it was like this moment that changed stuff for us. I remember as we started to worship more and more, sometimes it was like this, like spontaneous eruption of praise would just start happening. So we'd like praise for ages. And honestly, like, we were kind of. We'd get to the point where we knackered. So we pull it down and then it was like the room would just start to rumble and people would just start to worship. It wasn't led. We didn't say anything. And we started going, oh, this is. What's this? You know, if you go on Criminal Worship's YouTube, there's something, it's called a glory moment. It's like one of the most recent ones that's kind of like that if you wanted to watch it. But different. It was different. More kind of roaring. That's a word. And so. And that started happening. And then it's funny, we did Victory is Yours this morning. We haven't done that for ages. And we used to. We would lead certain songs and people would just start marching. It was like literally just doing this, not really to any rhythm. And it was like both ends. So it's like the people leading worship would be like, you roll like thunder, just like marching. And the people in the room were just starting to march and we were cutting. Do you know what? And the thing is, you don't notice things when you're in your environment. And people would come in and be like, why are people marching? I was like, oh, yeah. I don't know. It was just this weird thing. And the Lord started spontaneously doing things. It was like he was teaching us how to worship as the presence of God filled the room. Would you guys stand? We're going to read the word of the Lord.
[00:12:29] If you turn to 2nd Samuel, chapter 6, verse 12 to 23. Look at all your real Bibles. Come on now. It was told King David saying, the Lord has blessed the house of Obed Edom and all that belongs to him because the ark. Because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed Edom to the city of David with gladness. And so it was when those bearing the ark of the Lord had gone six paces that he sacrificed oxen and fattened sheep. Then David danced before the Lord with all his might. And David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of trumpets. Now, as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michael, Saul's daughter, looked through a window and saw David leaping and whirling before the Lord. And she despised him in her heart.
[00:13:33] So they bought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place in the midst of the tabernacle that David had erected for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord. And when David had finished offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. Then he distributed among the people and among the whole multitude of Israel, both the men and the women, to everyone a loaf of bread, a piece of meat, and a cake of raisins. So all the people departed, everyone to his house. Then David returned to bless his household. And Michael, the daughter of Saul, came out to meet David and said, how glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the maidset of his servants, as one of the base fellows shamelessly uncovers himself. So David said to Michael, it was before the Lord who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord over Israel. Therefore, I will play music before the Lord and I will be even more undignified than this and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor. Therefore, Michael, the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
[00:14:50] Sit you Guys could sit down.
[00:14:55] There's so much to take from this passage. I'd really encourage you to go back and read through all of chapter six.
[00:15:02] So here we have the Ark of the Covenant. This was the manifest presence of God that had traveled with Israel kind of since Moses and on and off and through various events. The presence of God had been away from the people of God and David was bringing it back. And as he brought the presence of God back to Israel, it invoked a lot of different responses in people.
[00:15:26] Here's my first point, that the presence of God always requires a response.
[00:15:32] Always.
[00:15:34] Have you ever noticed when the Holy Spirit falls in the room, sometimes it almost feels like you're in a fast car, that you're not driving.
[00:15:41] You're kind of like, stuff's going on and I don't really know what's happening. Or Chris Valentin said a few weeks ago, he talked about the Lord speaking to him, and the Lord was walking towards him and he got out of the way of the Lord. The Lord went past and the Lord turned around and said, now follow me. And he got back and then followed the Lord.
[00:15:59] There is something about the presence of God that requires a response. Do you know he's described as wind and fire? Those are powerful things that move you, that move you and change you.
[00:16:13] And when the Ark of the Covenant comes into Israel, Israel finds its mighty warrior king dancing it in. The Bible says he was leaping and whirling. You ever leapt a whirled in worship? The presence of God requires a response. I once heard Michael Kuliana say, if you want the fire, you must have a sacrifice. Sacrifice something costly to lay on the altar. And I'd ask you this morning, what costly thing would you bring to the Lord in worship? What will you give him that will cost you something? You know, for me, when I started learning that it was the presence of God was coming. And something in me during worship felt like I needed to give him something, but I just didn't know what it was.
[00:16:57] And when I started to understand that there was something I could bring the Lord that cost me something. As soon as I started to understand it, in the back of my head I'm like, it's dancing.
[00:17:06] And I was like, lord, that is the one thing you cannot have. Like, if, like, I cannot explain to you how much I dislike dancing. Like, not even a little two step, it's just not me.
[00:17:17] And I knew as the worship was coming, as I started to learn more and read my Bible, I started to learn that I've got to bring God Something that costs me. And the one thing I don't want to bring him is the costly thing.
[00:17:31] Do you know, as I say, that there'll be people in this room and there will be one thing that flashes into your mind and you're like, lord, you can have absolutely everything. But that thing, that thing is your breakthrough. That thing is the thing that is what will take you into the next steps of intimacy with the Lord.
[00:17:47] I just. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm an extravagant dancer, but I started to step in, and you gotta understand, for me, I'm on stage with these lot, and these lot look pretty cool when they're dancing. I look like I'm doing an aerobics workout. I like, honestly. You guys watch back the Trading My Sorrows video. You got like, Daniel just kind of grooving, looking all smooth, like, airs. Just giving it, you know, all the airs gives. And everyone be like, yeah. And me, honestly, I look like I'm doing star jumps. Like, honestly. And I watch it, I'm like, lord, oh, do you know? Do you know in heaven, we're not going to need a worship leader?
[00:18:28] Have you ever thought about that? In heaven, we're not going to need someone standing on stage saying, look at Jesus, or lift your voices or come on.
[00:18:36] In heaven, when Jesus walks in, you're going to be like, oh, my goodness.
[00:18:40] You get the chance here in this life right now to bring the Lord something costly. And you won't ever get to do that when you're with him. It's not costly anymore. We get to bring him things we don't want to. We get to make a choice to give him something that costs us something.
[00:18:58] It's massive and it's really powerful. And I think this morning the Lord is inviting you to give him something costly.
[00:19:05] My second point is that heart of worship has to look like something.
[00:19:09] Whenever I want to learn about worship or a heart posture before the Lord, I always go back to David. I find David interesting because he was in no way a perfect king or man. And he often does things that I'm like, that is so odd. But the Bible holds him in such high esteem. God holds him in such high regard.
[00:19:29] In Samuel 1 Samuel 16, it says, do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees. For man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.
[00:19:43] I often hear people take this passage as an excuse to not be undignified. Have you ever heard people say, it's not about what I do. It's about the heart. God cares about my heart. I don't need to dance because I'm worshiping in my heart.
[00:19:57] I want to humbly say to you this morning, I do not believe you can have a heart of worship in it. Not have an external response. I just don't. And I think I can prove it to you. Have you ever had a friend fall in love?
[00:20:12] I have had a few of my boys in recent years fall to the dark side. And.
[00:20:20] And let me tell you, there is a response. Let me give you the number one response. They clean their car.
[00:20:28] Instantly. Men who I have seen live in some wild environments start cleaning their car. They start dressing different. They start wanting to go in walks in the field.
[00:20:38] Let me tell you, as boys, we have never ended a FIFA night with, let's go on a walk in the field, real. And they start talking about the theater or learning to cook. And you're like, what? And then when they see each other, you know, the two people. And their eyes lock. You're like, I gotta leave the room. This is getting weird. There is something. Do you know when your heart falls in love with something, everything changes? There's a response. I'll give you another one. We were watching the Argentina, France World cup final game of a few years ago, and we gathered. There was a whole bunch of us. It was like, boys and girls, but if I'm honest, the girls weren't that interested. And the guys were, like, really excited. And we were just kind of hoping everyone was gonna let us watch football, to be honest. And as the game started going, the room was quite divided. Like, half the room's engaged. Half of the room is like, you know? But as the game went on, it was like every eye in the room began to lock on the game. And suddenly people started responding. There was. I can't remember what it was. It was like a 4, 4 score. There was like goal after goal after goal. And people that could not have cared less about the outcome of the game were jumping up, they were fighting, they were hugging. They were like. And it was the whole room. And I remember a couple of the guys came up to me afterwards and they said, do you know I could watch football if I found a team that had my heart like that? Because then I, like, totally engage. I'm like, all in.
[00:22:08] Do you get it? In worship with Jesus? How much more are we supposed to be? All in, all engaged. And you might be here today. And when the music starts to play and people start to worship your Arms go like this.
[00:22:24] Or you grab the safety handle on the front of the chair, or you cross. You know, you lock in and your eyes shut. As long as you don't think someone's coming to do something with you. Because then they're open and you're saying, leave me alone.
[00:22:37] And it's like you don't know what happens when you get into this space and the presence of God comes. It's like you lock up. You're like, I don't feel like I choose it, but I do. And I'm speaking to someone who. That was me.
[00:22:50] And I want to say to you today that, humbly, I think that is the Lord knocking on your heart. Do you know when the presence of God comes, there is always a response. And sometimes the response is, ah, okay, but the Lord is still knocking on your heart. He's right there and he wants to take a step in with you. And the question is, will you take a step?
[00:23:15] My final point is that people may not like your worship, but the Lord does.
[00:23:20] I said earlier that the presence of God invokes a response. Did you notice Michael's response to David's worship in that passage?
[00:23:30] As I was reading up on it, there were all kinds of people arguing and making their case as to why, essentially why they fell out. And if I'm honest with you, I am very much not married and have no comment.
[00:23:43] But what I have observed is that extravagant, undignified worship does tend to really offend people. Always. You will always find that extravagant worship to Jesus can really upset people. And what I want to say to you this morning is that is not a bad thing. If the presence of God always requires a response, A you want people to respond, even if it's, what on earth is going on? It's better than, I don't think anything's going on here.
[00:24:12] But not to be discouraged, when you step out in worship and it just offends some people, it's probably going to offend you.
[00:24:19] And sometimes as we go on the journey, we forget how much it offended us. And then kind of like, why are people really offended? And we went on the same journey. I was watching a thing once, a worship set once with a worship leader. And he was. I can only describe it as prancing up and down the stage. Okay. He was, like, running up and down. And it was kind of, honestly, a bit of an odd moment.
[00:24:41] And he just turns to the crowd and he's like, the person next to you didn't die for you.
[00:24:49] Jesus died for you. And you're worried about what they think.
[00:24:53] And I was like your worship will be offensive. It is going to stir some things up and it is going to move some things in your life. It's supposed to. That's good. And don't be scared. Don't be ashamed of being a rowdy people. Don't be ashamed of being the one who is a bit more out there. And don't be ashamed when you're out there. Just looks like a slight action. You know, for some of you in this room, honestly raising your hands is that slight action.
[00:25:25] That is significant. I'm not playing down that. I'm just saying make sure it's real in here.
[00:25:31] Thanks for listening to the Coma Charge podcast. If you enjoyed this message, you can like and subscribe. You can also join us in person or online every Sunday at Cromer Church. For more information about us, including our ministries, events, worship and how to donate, visit our website at Crema Church.
